"To Stand Among Lay People"
Interview with John Snider

John Snider is the pastor of St. Stephens Lutheran Church in St. Paul, Minnesota. He is polite, pleasant, and doesn't particularly like conflict. (But then, you knew that because he is a Minnesota Lutheran.) In this conversation, we talked about Church meetings, vocation, and Ben and Jerry's bumper stickers.

Doug: How was your Church Council meeting last night?

John: I was dreading it. I felt tired, and sick of meetings. The last thing I wanted to do was to go to another meeting.

Doug: So you called in sick and went to see Shrek 2?

John: I'm a Lutheran--we don't call in sick. And as it turns out, it was a great meeting. Some kind of transformation happened. As I said, I went in empty; I left feeling energized and excited about the ministry of this church. I think it was one of those times when the community carried me. They brought the Spirit of Christ to me, because I had nothing to give.

Doug: Was there anything in particular that happened?

John: Part of it was laughter. I think that humor is a grossly underestimated element of a community life. Just listening to these folks telling jokes about their lives picked me up.

Doug: Didn't the great theologians Ben and Jerry's come out with a bumper sticker that says "If it's not fun, why do it?" It skips over minor themes in Christian theology like service, suffering and death, but I have always liked it.

John: I think you can make the case that even at the cross there is joy. Somehow even by losing yourself you find yourself. It stretches the definitions of the words, but even sacrifice and service can be 'fun'.

But let me give you another example from the council meeting last night. Along with the laughter, we had some conflicts we were dealing with. I hate disagreements--I usually shoot conflict on sight. But last night I was smart enough to get out of the way. It ended up being a helpful and creative conversation. We are learning to trust each other, and trust conflict too. It isn't fun, especially for Lutherans. It is a kind of death. But there is a deeper joy that comes when you work through it. Maybe Ben and Jerry should have another bumper sticker that says, "If it doesn't involve death and resurrection, why do it?"

Doug: I'm sure that will be a hot seller.

Let's talk about FAW's Mutual Ministry Project for a moment. We have asked you to think about call and vocation in our retreats. What is your understanding of those concepts?

John: I had a kind of epiphany around the word vocation recently, and it has to do with the concept of participation. I was at a conference, and the speaker talked about what he called 'participating in our vocation'. He said that we can't participate in our salvation or justification, but we do participate in our vocation. We are partners with God in working out our life of faith. That felt very liberating to me.

Doug: Why?

John: Well because Lutherans tend to be (and I am this way especially) fixated on redemption. We get stuck at the foot of the cross. Just receive. Don't get a big head. You know, Midwest values, stay put and keep your head low. In a sense we are sort of impotent because our hands are tied. We receive communion and go home.

But what if I am a partner with God, co creating my life? That is exciting; it takes the passivity out of it. And isn't that what prayer is about, a dialoging and partnering with God? Saying, 'God, I'm opening myself to you, I am thinking of doing this, can you steer me a little bit?

Doug: How then do you define vocation?

John: I see it as the struggle to make my life a gift.

Doug: A gift to who?

John: What difference does it make? Anybody! To love the Lord your God and your neighbor also. It's the I John stuff…if you say you love God, but don't love your neighbor… It is highly relational. It has to be.

Doug: I assume that as a pastor, you would like for your congregation to be deepening their partnership with God, and figuring out what their sense of call means in daily life. How do you begin to think about doing that?

John: You begin to think about that by beginning to think about it. Frankly, we clergy don't spend a whole lot of time on people's vocation in daily life.

Here is a recent example of a way I have been thinking about it recently. The text for Sunday is from John 20: 'Jesus came and stood among them.' I have been comparing that to Luke 23.49 '…and his friends stood apart from him'. (This takes place during the crucifixion.) I have been struck by that contrast, the difference between standing among people, versus standing apart from them. In this case maybe supporting people in their vocation has something to do with standing with people in their vocation.

Doug: What does that mean to 'stand among' people at work? You can't do all of it.

John: I see it happening here at St. Stephens through quality small group relationships. I know a guy here who has started participating in one of our small groups. He is in construction. (He cracks me up--every time he swears, he says, 'Sorry pastor, that was contractor talk'). Through a small group here, he is learning about quality relationships. And it has effected the way he treats his employees. They have told him that they like working at his company. So he is taking a certain quality of relationships, practicing it here at church, then bringing it into the world.

That is one way the ministry of this church is trying to 'stand among' people in their vocation.

Doug: Why don't you put that on your bumper sticker?

John Snider and St. Stephens Lutheran Church are participants in FAW's Mutual Ministry Project.

The Mutual Ministry Project is a three year research effort to help the church support people for their ministry in daily life. It is called the Mutual Ministry Project out of the conviction that both pastors and laypeople are called to ministry, and that they need each other for support in the living out of our daily calls. The MMP is being led by Doug Wysockey-Johnson and Dick Broholm